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| Advice & help please on behavioural issue; Long post warning! Otis has gone off the rails... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 5 Apr 2015, 11:45 PM (835 Views) | |
| Cappo | 5 Apr 2015, 11:45 PM Post #1 |
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Dalmatians
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Hello all, I'm sorry but this is going to have to be a long post - correction, a VERY long post! - so that I can explain everything, so if you can bear with me that would be great! Otis is our beautiful, handsome 10 month old GSD, and my 3rd Shep. We got him at 12 weeks old, from a reputable breeder; Otis was part of her 7th generation of GSDs bred, some of which she kept as her own dogs. We met Mum and Dad before choosing him. Before I go any further, can I just say that I have given a home to 7 rescue dogs over the years, and will quite probably offer a home to more in the future, but this time around for many reasons we wanted a pup - please don't hate us for that! From an early age, Otis has always been a little timid, a little cautious. As well as taking him to training classes, we have worked extremely hard to socialise him with any and every situation we can think of, including of course other dogs. There isn't a day goes by without him meeting other dogs, sometimes dogs he knows, sometimes strangers. His approach to unknown dogs, whether he and they are on and off the lead, is to sometimes grumble a little and usually to approach cautiously and slowly, but once they have said hello, he is invariably fine with them. There is an unofficial "dog club" every afternoon on the green where we live, there are anything from 4 to 8 dogs there, the oldest being about 3 years, and they all play together really well. Otis thoroughly enjoys this, although it has to be said that he does sometimes get a little carried away with his boisterousness and needs a couple of minutes time-out to calm down before going back to play, but you can really see that he loves to play, to chase, to tease the other dogs with a ball in his mouth until they chase him - all good stuff. In the house he is a perfect dog. Sure, he's chewed a few things when we've been careless where we left them, but otherwise he is loving, affectionate, can be handled in any and every way with ease, and is also a fantastic guard dog; nobody is getting inside our boundary without him letting us know, and letting them know he is here. He's calm and relaxed once we give him the OK with any stranger. He has also demonstrated good guard/protection traits with Juliet once, when they were out walking along a footpath and a slightly odd, eccentric local approached them (this man is about 6'6" and shouts randomly at nothing when he is walking about). Everyone knows he is harmless although Otis obviously sensed something was wrong, he didn't do anything other than put himself between Juliet and the man and barked at him but I was pleased that he was looking after her. Otis' manners and training have been very good from an early age. His recall in particular was probably the best of any dog I have ever owned. When giving the command "Otis: here", he would be on his way back to you by the time you had got the "O" out of your mouth. Lately that has needed a little more reinforcement but we expected that phase to come as he reached adolescence anyway. Still with me? Great! So far I hope you have the picture of a lovely dog of whom we have been very proud. Despite what I said above about how Otis behaves with strange (i.e. unknown) dogs, he has a few times run away from a dog for no obvious reason. I guess he picks up on something he's not sure about and wants to put a little distance between them. Usually he will run 30-40 metres away then stand and have a look. I can call him and he will either come to me, or wait where he is until I go to him; not ideal, I would much prefer that he responds to my recall but I can accept that he may be worried so I'll go to him and reassure him. So, on to the big, current problem we have. Last Thursday we were in a local country park about 2 miles from home. We go there a few times every week, so he knows it well. We had been in the park for about 10 minutes and made our way to one of the fields where there are often other dogs. When we got there, there was a springer who Otis knows, a small, VERY bouncy, VERY lively lurcher, and a very large white dog which I had never seen before but which may have had some Shep in it, but it was huge - I'd guess 45-50kg. All four dogs met in the middle of the field, and I was right beside them. They all had a sniff around each other and everything seemed fine. To a mere human like me, there were no signals, aggression, nothing negative at all going on. However, suddenly Otis whimpered once and then bolted toward a large clump of bushes about 50m away, and stopped. I called him, and he started to come towards me, but then this little lurcher ran over to him again and Otis ran around the back of the bushes. So, I walked towards the bushes expecting him to appear at the other end. When I got there, he was nowhere to be seen. This park has self-closing gates on every entrance except the car park, and that was in the other direction, so at first I wasn't too concerned. I called him and whistled him but couldn't find him. The panic started to set in…. To cut a long story short, having involved a large number of people in the search, Otis turned up a short time later… 2 MILES AWAY AT HOME. Someone must have let him out of one of the gates, I doubt he jumped it. The route home involves a busy High Street, a main A-road, a massive 5-way road junction, and a housing estate. It's not a straight line. Somehow, and I promise you that I have had nightmares about this every night since it happened, he not only found his way home but was neither run over nor stolen in the process. I know the route he took because several people said they had seen him. Part of me was amazed (and secretly impressed!) that he found his way home, but I couldn't believe he had run from me, and that was really quite upsetting. For the three days since, we have been taking things carefully with him whilst trying not to make a big thing of it. This morning I took him out, on a completely different walk, and once we were well out into the countryside, I let him off (he is almost always off the lead with me unless we are walking along a road, and I manage him closely regarding contact with people and other animals). About 20 minutes into our walk, Otis was 5ft behind me when I glimpsed, through some trees, a jogger approaching. About 2-3 weeks ago, Otis developed a thing about running up to joggers, just for a sniff, so I have been working on training him every time I see a jogger by sitting him and making him stay until they have passed. I turned around to call him to me, but he also glimpsed the jogger, and perhaps they had a dog - I don't know but something spooked him again and he ran off in the other direction. I don't know who or what he thought he saw. It wasn't simple disobedience, he was obviously scared by something. I ran after him, and when I got around a corner I could see that he had stopped about 100m away. I called him, whistled him (he knew I had treats, we had been training not 5 minutes earlier) but he bolted again and there was no way I could catch him. I called home, and Juliet ran towards where we were, and intercepted him, on his way home, him having covered about a mile, once again several different turns and junctions, and crossed two roads. I was, I promise you, completely gutted. So that is where we are up to. Obviously be won't be off the lead again any time soon unless it's in the back garden or in a fully-enclosed space. But that makes me immensely sad; he's my mate, we walk and play every day and if he's on the lead all the time then it will "just" be a walk, a task, not a pleasure or something to enjoy. I took him to a big park this afternoon and kept him on a short lead for the whole walk but it was really quite upsetting to see all the other people playing with their dogs, enjoying them, throwing balls, the dogs interacting with each other, etc. At the moment I can't see how I will ever be able to let him run free again - what he has done has been so completely unpredictable, right up to the second where he goes, so when and how are we ever going to be able to trust him again? At best he will have to be on a lunge line and that's it. On top of all that, not only do we obviously not want him lost or hurt, but if he runs across another road and causes an accident….. My current thoughts are that we will need to find a good canine behaviourist and see what they think they can do. If you have stuck with my "War & Peace" post this far and have anything else you can offer to help us, I would really appreciate it, because despite 35 years of dog experience, on & off, I am really stuck with this one. Thanks all. Mark |
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| reiyel | 6 Apr 2015, 03:27 PM Post #2 |
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Newbie
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Hello Mark, Has ottis got a favourite toy that you can both go back to just having some fun together. You sound to me like a very loving and responsible owner but sometimes in our enthusiasm we can over train. Take the jogger for example, training him to sit and give way all the time could mean joggers are dangerous in his doggy mind. We love them so much we can sometimes forget to think like a dog. Have some fun play times let him respond to you in positive ways, he dosn't want to stand with you in what he perceives as danger and have to do as he's told so he runs to safety Home. Show him your his fun and he's always safe with you. Get positive playing. Good Luck Angela |
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| Pamela | 6 Apr 2015, 06:06 PM Post #3 |
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I would first be concentrating on his recall , keeping him on a long line at all times . If he has a favourite toy take that with you and use it for a reward when he returns .. Something must of spooked him for him to run off , its a shame you cant pin point exactly what made him do it and ignore you recall . |
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| Patlucky | 6 Apr 2015, 06:35 PM Post #4 |
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Would like to stay in bed like the other Pat does
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Hi Mark these things are sent to try us. I would like to say just a few things about things that jumped out to me You did not have Otis until he was 12 weeks Dogs have learned a lot by then. You did say he was scared for no reason I think he met a dominant dog and that is enough for him to think . If he meets a dog that is less dominant than him he is ok he will play. Another thing you said was you went and reassured Otis. If you did that when he was in a scared state , you transferred to him (it is ok to be scared) Never praise a dog is that frame of mind. Only ever praise the GOOD things. He is a little timid that is probably just in his nature. Having said that my dog has a problem that I cannot sort as yet So we all have something ~ just glad that Otis did not get hurt. Guess it is a warning Good luck you will get a lot of good advice here |
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| Nightrunner | 6 Apr 2015, 08:01 PM Post #5 |
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Biggsd Funds Co-ordinator
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Hi Mark, I can really sympathise with you. Bet you feel SO frustrated that Otis has suddenly started to act in this way. You say Otis was always a bit timid when younger, maybe this fear problem is starting to manifest in a larger way. Perhaps something happened in the field when all four dogs met, although you didn't witness it but you say Otis wimpered, then shot off, so something must have caused him to behave like that. Maybe he got nipped by one of the other dogs or maybe one was a bit too rough in their play - with an already timid Otis. As Pamela has said, as he has now bolted on more than one occasion, best to keep him on a long line until you get the problem sorted otherwise if he charges off again, he may not make it home...... May take a time to sort out but at least Otis will be safe if kept on a long line for the time being - although it does take the enjoyment out of things, having a dog on a line all the time. And as Pat said, I think we all have some little problem with our dogs, so don't get discouraged - you are not alone! Good luck with Otis. If you know of a good Animal Behaviourist, seek their advice but some charge the earth so maybe find a good GS Training Club who may be able to help. Christine |
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| Cappo | 6 Apr 2015, 11:33 PM Post #6 |
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Dalmatians
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and your words of support, much appreciated! Yes, back to basics is what we have focused on since it happened and he's doing OK. Have also been in touch with a behaviourist today and we'll meet with him soon to see what he thinks. Pat, yes, I have wondered a couple of times what impact the 12 week age at leaving the litter had on him and what may have happened, there were 2 other pups still in the litter at that time and it's always possible they bullied him. The lady who bred them seemed more interested in the dogs than actually making money from them so she didn't advertise hard; perhaps a good thing in some ways but perhaps not necessarily so good for the dogs if they picked up unwanted traits in that time. We will of course persevere with him! When we got him we still had our old Duffy (rescue GSD bitch aged around 10) but we sadly and unexpectedly lost her about 2 months after Otis arrived. I still think he could have benefited a lot and learnt a lot from her if she had still been with us. I'll let you all know when there is some more news, hopefully positive. |
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| Patlucky | 7 Apr 2015, 07:59 AM Post #7 |
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Would like to stay in bed like the other Pat does
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I would carry on with the training. I think you need to have everything in place before letting any dog off. Plus your dog ,as all dogs need to have respect for other dogs they don't know. Play in dogs is fine but not all dogs will tolerate a dog playing/jumping on them. Once they get to about two they wont tolerate younger dogs. One thing you could get a very very long lead(used to train horses) There is a downside to that though. If your dog does do a runner from the end of it you will go too.(had to smile sorry) You are doing fine with going back to basic's As I said before I have a problem too getting it sorted though
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| Jennysmum | 7 Apr 2015, 11:38 PM Post #8 |
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If only I could go up the pole upside down
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Is he castrated? Pat x |
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| Cappo | 9 Apr 2015, 12:34 PM Post #9 |
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Dalmatians
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Not yet Pat, but we plan to have that done very soon. |
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| catsx11 | 11 Apr 2015, 10:57 PM Post #10 |
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"...it's a dog's life!"
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| CarolineM | 12 Apr 2015, 11:46 AM Post #11 |
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Posh enough for a Skateboard
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Not cruel to castrate a dog - it can change behaviour, prevents testicular cancer and helps prevent unwanted/accidental pregnancies. If an entire dog realises there is a receptive bitch around he can become a bit single minded! I agree that at 10 months he is still a baby and still has a lot of learning to do. My 3 year old is still largely on lead walks due to unpredictable behaviour with other dogs. |
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| Jennysmum | 13 Apr 2015, 03:23 AM Post #12 |
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If only I could go up the pole upside down
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Castrate a male at 12 months. This is the optimum time and when his testosterone has peaked ie adolescence is at an end. His feminine hormones will be about what they're going to be. I have been a trainer, specialising in nerves and aggression for near on forty years. The majority of aggressive males are un-neutered. Not that all entire males are aggressive or likely to be, but there are more of them. Any thing linked to the sex hormone is usually trouble in the youngsters. Similarly, I see many, many cases in my clinic, of dogs who were castrated under 12 months, showing dreadful aggression. That's almost always linked, unfortunately. The debate whether to 'de-frock' a male dog will go on until the end of time. I've seen an un-neutered male suffer, then die from testicular cancer and it wasn't pretty. The owners were told it was entirely preventable, had they castrated him. They 'didn't fancy it - thought it was unkind'. Now they've lost him, they struggle with the guilt. I have to say, it was far more unkind, seeing that dog (I held him as he was put to sleep) get cancer. Neuter your dog, don't neuter your dog. It's up to you. But don't make any mistake in your decision through ignorance of the facts. Speak to your vet. Better still, speak to an oncologist and get their opinion if you're unsure about castration. Your dog pays for your mistakes. Do call me if you need to. Pat x |
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| whitefang | 13 Apr 2015, 12:11 PM Post #13 |
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GSD Annointed Member
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I fully agree that you should have him castrated. Entire males can run away to look for females so as yours is already keen to run away best to have it done. I can't advise on what is the best time to have it done, best to discuss it with your vet but I know some people who had a husky and had to have him castrated at 6 months because he became completely "crazy" with the hormones, he was jumping on them and biting them, attacking other dogs, so they had no other choices...once he was castrated he was back to being a good doggy. Maybe you should also talk to people who have huskies because lots of them like to go on a walkabout so they maybe can give you some good advice. Good luck! |
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