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Baylee Scared Of People (strangers)
Topic Started: 23 Feb 2012, 04:00 PM (1,510 Views)
Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
hiya all , just wonderd if any would like to share a few tips with me on how to get baylee to stop being petrified of strangers

internet wasnt much help , anyone have previouse experience or know what to do ??

IN THE HOUSE: if a stranger comes in the house i.e a friend of mine she hasnt met // or met 2-3 times , at first she would bark and run off , now she stands still barking and will sit infront of me or mum , growling and barking - ive had my friends giving her biscuits and sausage , but she'll come over take it and go back and then growl and bark ,,,(ofcourse we tell her no / quiet) -- any other way of getting her to approach them ???

ON THE STREET ; while walking her she is somtimes frightend of people that walk past us (but not often) shell slow down then try and run past them ,, if im walking and someone stops and talks to me she'll start barking and growling while standing still (i often turn around walk her the other way then cme back)


im not sure what else to try so id be greatful for every comment

Thankyou , Adam
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pangolin
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GSD Addict
I wouldn't force her to go over her threshold, not only could you risk a bite out of fear but it won't help her to learn because she'll be in an anxious state and not in a position to learn anything (a bit like someone trying to tell someone with arachnophobia not to be afraid of spiders when they have one climbing up their leg!)
In the house, I would give her a safe space she can retreat to when you have guests. Can you set up a babygate across one doorway to shut her behind? Ensure that it's a "no guests zone" so she realises that she's safe in there, and once she's calmer you can work towards leaving the gate open and letting her greet people at her own pace. Alternatively, set up a crate in a corner (as far away from where your guests will sit) and make a rule that guests cannot approach her - you can slowly work on moving the crate closer, over the next weeks/months (or even years, if it takes that long). Make guests a positive experience by saving really high value treats for when guests are over, keep a marrowbone in the freezer or stuff a Kong with something really delicious (cream cheese, tinned fish, peanut butter, mashed potato, etc) to give to her when guests are over.
One the street I would advise you put distance between yourself and people - again, learn her threshold and stay on the calm side of it, if she tips over to fear then she won't be in a position to learn that people are OK. Walk in a big arc around people giving her lots of praise for being calm.
BAT is something you could use here, it's about using functional rewards rather than just food. In Baylee's case, you could reward a glance or step towards a person with the functional reward of walking away from them.
http://functionalrewards.com/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Behavior-Adjustment-Training-Frustration-01-Sep-2011/dp/B005ONK24C

If she is that scared then a behaviourist may be worthwhile, even if it's just one one initial consultation. As with any behaviourist work, but especially when it's fear-based, I would stress the importance of finding a behaviourist who uses modern, kind methods, so I would suggest finding one via the APBC website - http://www.apbc.org.uk
Aversive methods like choke chains, noise discs, water pistols, Pet Corrector sprays, etc. will just reinforce to Baylee that there is a genuine reason to be afraid of people. They may surpress her behaviour for now, but you risk causing further problems, like aggression towards people, by not dealing with the cause of her anxiety.
Be careful about telling a dog off for growling too, growling is a good behaviour - it is a warning that she is not comfortable and that she doesn't want the guests to approach her. Far better to her running over and biting them! If you punish a dog for growling then you may inadvertently teach her to go straight for the bite in the future.
Edited by pangolin, 23 Feb 2012, 04:39 PM.
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WeLoveJess
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Julie Marie wots got a noo friend, Jeanette
Adam, just a thought, how long has this been going on for? eg. did it flare up once Breck left??
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Weetabix
GSD Puppy
Hi Adam,
Knowing nothing about your dog, from what you describe, sounds like a nerve issue, with low threshold to stress which in turn throws her into defence drive.

I've put a link on here for you to read at your leisure, it's an easy read and it might answer a few questions for you

Hope it helps

Rhiannon @ Gareth



http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/Elements%20of%20Temperament.htm
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buddybear
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Hi Adam

Sarge was the king of the scaredy pants crew when he was a puppy, he growled at everyone and everything (even me to start with!) and I thought I'd got the puppy from hell!! :lol: He still grumbles a little at strangers if he's not sure but turns into mush when he gets to know someone and he's 100% now at walking past people and objects without panicking!

I didnt let people approach him but let him approach at his own pace. If he wanted to take a treat then fine but if he backed off we just left it and everyone ignored him. If standing talking to someone I'd get them to completely ignore him and maybe pop a few treats in their hand to just drop on the floor, can help a little.
It takes time and patience and its very hard to try to get people NOT to rush over and mug the puppy!!!!

As puppylove said dont force her into a situation she doesnt like or tell her off for growling...she's just scared. Much the same as above, give her lots of treats and nice things when she is not reacting at her own safe distance and then decrease the distance until she does not react. If she does react at any point then take a step back in training.

The BAT training is another great idea, again at a distance that is comfortable for her, then when she shows a distracting behaviour like sniffing the ground or turning her head in the other direction of the person/object, walk away, no food rewards needed. There's a great book re BAT training by Grisha Stewart :thumbs up:

Keep us updated how your getting on, I'm sure she'll come around in time :hug:

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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
Thanks alot for this everyone , i dont let people come straight up and stroke her i tell them shes nervous so if you croucht down shel come over in a few second when shes readdy ,

She did doit before breck left but its got worse since hes gone (for the next 2 weeks we have a 8month old lab maby she can hepp a bit)

if shes not between our legs she'll be in her bed wich is opposite the sofa (other side of the room) , is it orth telling my guests to ignore her and avoid eye contact ?


Thanks a milion Adam
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buddybear
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Yes Adam, I would tell visitors to ignore her, no eye contact and when they are settled let them drop a few treats on the floor around them but still ignore her when she comes to get them :thumbs up:

It probably wont have helped with Breck leaving as she would have had another dog to help with her confidence a little but imo it wont hurt her to build her confidence on her own without another dog around. You'll maybe see the difference with a new visitor coming? Rottie
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
buddybear
23 Feb 2012, 09:47 PM
Yes Adam, I would tell visitors to ignore her, no eye contact and when they are settled let them drop a few treats on the floor around them but still ignore her when she comes to get them :thumbs up:

It probably wont have helped with Breck leaving as she would have had another dog to help with her confidence a little but imo it wont hurt her to build her confidence on her own without another dog around. You'll maybe see the difference with a new visitor coming? Rottie
yeah hopefully that'll work ,if not ile ask the lady at my puppy classif she know of a good behaviourist that may be able to help

Thanks :thumbs up:
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buddybear
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Personally, just my opinon Adam but I wouldnt involve a behavourist at this moment in time, she's just a baby.

Keep on with socialising her and working with her as above and she'll come around when she realises everythings not so scary :hug:
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
buddybear
23 Feb 2012, 10:44 PM
Personally, just my opinon Adam but I wouldnt involve a behavourist at this moment in time, she's just a baby.

Keep on with socialising her and working with her as above and she'll come around when she realises everythings not so scary :hug:
thankyouu , i would only consider that if by say 1 year old , she got a lot worse although as shes young im hoping its easier to get out of her :thumbs up:
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
Just a little update , she has got slightley better although , still if someone new comes into our house or approaches me or her (while on the lead) she still barks alot , and in the home she barks and runs away and will bark for aslong as she can hear that person , any other ideas ? ,

i did speak to a police dog handler / trainer of handlers and their dogs at and openday event > and he kindly said to me i have an uphill struggle < thats it no advice

Thankyou
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WeLoveJess
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Julie Marie wots got a noo friend, Jeanette
Minky did this for the first few weeks we had her : although her story was different in that she wasn't a pup, but we put it down to her having just been an outdoor dog and not used to seeing visitors knock at the door and enter. She also started her season the very day we picked her up :funny face: and as we all know, us laydeeez can get a bit withdrawn and .. .erm.... shall we say..... "fussy" ???... around that time :ph43r:

I'm so sorry but I haven't gone back enough in this thread, so can you remind us when it started?

how old is she now? Is she around the first-season age?

I'd never handled a bitch through a season before (and never want to again :rolleyes: :lol: ) but the mad old woman on the IOW educated me on it and said how they do have mood changes and become very withdrawn and just retreat to their area and don't want to socialise.

Is Baylee OK with regular visitors to the house ie. if she recognises them does she calm down quicker?

What helped with Minky was to ask the visitor to come and sit on the couch in our kitchen (so on lower level) and ignore her but just keep talking to me but silently drop a treat a couple of feet away from us.... took a while the first time (and about 10 mins of barking) but our friend dropped the treat and we carried on talking, she DARTED into the kitchen, grabbed it and shot back into her crate in the lounge :rolleyes: :lol: Whenever our friend spoke, she would start barking again..... so he just dropped another treat..... same thing happened.... BUT.... she ate it at the kitchen doorway :mexican wave: .....during all this time we didn't look at her or talk to her and just carried on chatting (it's amazing how we sorted out the Single Currency issue in that time... if only someone had listened to us :rolleyes: )...... she retreated to her crate.... 5 mins later started barking again..... he dropped the treat, same area i.e. 2 feet away from us..... third time? SHE ATE IT ON THE SPOT.... then nervously went to the far end of the kitchen and lay down.... :doublewave: nowhere near as much barking :doublewave: by the time he left, she was silent and even did a nervous sniff of his leg as he left. Next time he came? Repeated it.... she only took one treat and then no more barking and she lay down in her crate in the other room and was OK.

It's hard work in that we had to do this with every visitor to the house.... even the poor postie :lol: Mike had something for us to sign so I asked him to sit on the front step for a couple of mins and chat whilst I signed.... Minky was barking like mad for 5 mins (and running back to her crate barking) but within 7/8 mins she was nervously approaching, sniffing at Mike's hair :lol: and even gave him a quick lick on the ear before running away :rolleyes: :lol: WE did this every time he came to the door (he is brilliant :wub: ) and now she barks when he knocks, but as soon as she sees it's him, the tail is wagging and when I open the door, he crouches to say hello and he gets a full wash :rolleyes:

it was hard going.... but worth it..... but I bet you've tried some of this already haven't you?
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
WeLoveJess
17 Jun 2012, 11:12 AM
Minky did this for the first few weeks we had her : although her story was different in that she wasn't a pup, but we put it down to her having just been an outdoor dog and not used to seeing visitors knock at the door and enter. She also started her season the very day we picked her up :funny face: and as we all know, us laydeeez can get a bit withdrawn and .. .erm.... shall we say..... "fussy" ???... around that time :ph43r:

I'm so sorry but I haven't gone back enough in this thread, so can you remind us when it started?

how old is she now? Is she around the first-season age?

I'd never handled a bitch through a season before (and never want to again :rolleyes: :lol: ) but the mad old woman on the IOW educated me on it and said how they do have mood changes and become very withdrawn and just retreat to their area and don't want to socialise.

Is Baylee OK with regular visitors to the house ie. if she recognises them does she calm down quicker?

What helped with Minky was to ask the visitor to come and sit on the couch in our kitchen (so on lower level) and ignore her but just keep talking to me but silently drop a treat a couple of feet away from us.... took a while the first time (and about 10 mins of barking) but our friend dropped the treat and we carried on talking, she DARTED into the kitchen, grabbed it and shot back into her crate in the lounge :rolleyes: :lol: Whenever our friend spoke, she would start barking again..... so he just dropped another treat..... same thing happened.... BUT.... she ate it at the kitchen doorway :mexican wave: .....during all this time we didn't look at her or talk to her and just carried on chatting (it's amazing how we sorted out the Single Currency issue in that time... if only someone had listened to us :rolleyes: )...... she retreated to her crate.... 5 mins later started barking again..... he dropped the treat, same area i.e. 2 feet away from us..... third time? SHE ATE IT ON THE SPOT.... then nervously went to the far end of the kitchen and lay down.... :doublewave: nowhere near as much barking :doublewave: by the time he left, she was silent and even did a nervous sniff of his leg as he left. Next time he came? Repeated it.... she only took one treat and then no more barking and she lay down in her crate in the other room and was OK.

It's hard work in that we had to do this with every visitor to the house.... even the poor postie :lol: Mike had something for us to sign so I asked him to sit on the front step for a couple of mins and chat whilst I signed.... Minky was barking like mad for 5 mins (and running back to her crate barking) but within 7/8 mins she was nervously approaching, sniffing at Mike's hair :lol: and even gave him a quick lick on the ear before running away :rolleyes: :lol: WE did this every time he came to the door (he is brilliant :wub: ) and now she barks when he knocks, but as soon as she sees it's him, the tail is wagging and when I open the door, he crouches to say hello and he gets a full wash :rolleyes:

it was hard going.... but worth it..... but I bet you've tried some of this already haven't you?
we have tried some of these things , she started doing this around 6 months old , she is now 10 months old and hasnt had a season yet , and she is fine with regular visitors , she just wants to play with them , ill have to try and get these non regular visitors to come round more often , hopefully she'll have her season soon and trying so sort this may get on a bit quicker.
hopefully when mum gets her new guide dog puppy in a month or two this will give baylee a confidence boost as she seems more confident when theres another dog in the house , but until then we will have to keep on working with her

thankyou :group hug:
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PJ
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Ember, Rodney & Obi-Wan's mum
My Rodney is a very scared boy and has been exhibiting the same behaviours since I got him at 6 months old. No amount of time and patience has gotten him over it so it's turned to a management issue where people will be visiting often we have a plan in place which consists of them coming on walks with us and treats and playing fetch but most of all no eye contact. For once in a blue moon visitors for Rodney's comfort and mental health he's put in another room so he doesn't get stressed as he's been known to wet himself in fear. Up Untill 18 months ago I could count on one hand the amount of people he felt comfortable around and would let near him now we are in triple digits due to the introduction plan we have in place and on a walk off lead with a ball in his mouth he doesn't bark at anyone
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
thank for the advice PJ , ile give it a try although im thinking about trying a thunder jacket to see if it relaxes her a bit more (aswell as her seperation anxiety) , ill gie the jacket some more thaught and give your idea a go ,se fine with strangers off lead out of the house , so defintaley worth a try , Thanks
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PJ
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Ember, Rodney & Obi-Wan's mum
Rodney has a thunder shirt and while
It's not a cure he is more relaxed wearing it so it's deffinatly
Worth a go :)
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shovelears
GSD Lover
How about Bach Flower Remedies? I know, they can take a fair few weeks until you see a difference. If you are looking for something to help relax her within a few days, try Zylkene. My vet recommended it and we use it for Cami for extreme seperation anxiety and it has made a huge difference in a very short time.

I have a Thundershirt which is far too big for the dogs here and Jack (the original owner of the shirt) really does not need it any more. You are welcome to it for your lassie and if it fits ( it is XL) just pop a donation into the Biggsd kitty.
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
shovelears
18 Jun 2012, 09:51 AM
How about Bach Flower Remedies? I know, they can take a fair few weeks until you see a difference. If you are looking for something to help relax her within a few days, try Zylkene. My vet recommended it and we use it for Cami for extreme seperation anxiety and it has made a huge difference in a very short time.

I have a Thundershirt which is far too big for the dogs here and Jack (the original owner of the shirt) really does not need it any more. You are welcome to it for your lassie and if it fits ( it is XL) just pop a donation into the Biggsd kitty.
thankyou for the the offer of the thunderjacket but im afraid it may be a tadge too big for baylee , as she only weighs 26 kg and on the size chart it says 27-45kg's > shess about at big as an adult male labrador,, but ill definatley try and get some Zylkene

Thankyou ever so much
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shovelears
GSD Lover
That's fine, Adam. I hope the Zylkene will help. It's worth a try. It will be expensive from your vet, but you can get it a lot cheaper off ebay!

Somebody just pm'd me (a secret lurker who needs to come out of the closet, methinks! :wave: ) and asked to have the shirt in x change for a £25 donation to the fund. How hugely generous is that? :thumbs up:
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
ohh thats very good indeed , it wasnt colin was it getting it for one of his Quiet bunch :rotflmao: , and ile check out ebay :thumbs up:

Thankyou
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shovelears
GSD Lover
are you calling Colin a secret lurker....? :rotflmao:
no, wasn't him.

you'll need the 450mg for your girl. there's somebody on ebay who sells Zylkene for £14 for 20. (one a day) That is the best deal I found, (unless you want to buy a packet of 100....)

give her the capsule contents on piece of bread with some yummy spread of sorts, (Cami refuses it otherwise)
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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
shovelears
18 Jun 2012, 12:55 PM
are you calling Colin a secret lurker....? :rotflmao:
no, wasn't him.

you'll need the 450mg for your girl. there's somebody on ebay who sells Zylkene for £14 for 20. (one a day) That is the best deal I found, (unless you want to buy a packet of 100....)

give her the capsule contents on piece of bread with some yummy spread of sorts, (Cami refuses it otherwise)
oh wow , that is a good deal most places online have it for 10 for 10-15 pound , thankyou very much , ahh its just We all know how quite Mr Roo is :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
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pangolin
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Mali-Adam
17 Jun 2012, 11:10 PM
thank for the advice PJ , ile give it a try although im thinking about trying a thunder jacket to see if it relaxes her a bit more (aswell as her seperation anxiety) , ill gie the jacket some more thaught and give your idea a go ,se fine with strangers off lead out of the house , so defintaley worth a try , Thanks
If she is suffering separation anxiety then her anxiety may be transferring to other aspects of her life too. Trying some calmatives like Zylkene or Calmex could be an idea. There's DAP/Adaptil collars/sprays/plugins, Pet Remedy diffusers, Rescue Remedy (various products you could try) and Thundershirts as mentioned. Magnesium deficiencies can cause anxiety too, there are some products designed to supplement magnesium for anxiety e.g. Stressless.

If it seems to continue excessively, it may be worth having some bloodwork done to see if there's a medical cause. I've just had the same done for Kiki and her anxiety and it's mostly clear but possibly signs towards being borderline hypothyroid, I have contacted Dr Jean Dodds in America to see if she can take a look at the results and give her view (she's very savvy on thyroid issues - I may have her more comprehensive thyroid panel done to shed some more light on it as the UK panels don't cover all the various thyroid hormones)
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Weetabix
GSD Puppy
For me Adam it's socialise socialise socialise, as much as you possibly can. Mali's by nature are very much 'people' dogs, they can be very affectionate and are at their happiest around who they consider to be their pack.

Get her as much positive experiences with people every day so that she learns that strangers are nothing to worry and get anxious about.

Some people will say that it's about thresholds. If you imagine your friendly dog, GSD, BSD, Rottweiler whatever, there are the type who will let strangers approach, pat, smooth, stroke, they'll let children hang off them even when they don't know the child (parents shouldn't let it happen but it does) and the dog doesn't bat an eyelid.

This is what is described as a confident dog with a high stress stimulus threshold, in that it will take quite a lot to get him to react negatively to what's going on around him.

The opposite to this is the less confident dogs who have a lower stimulus to stress, in that they struggle with what's going on around them and feel that they need to show that they're not happy by ie a growl, a snap a bite, a bark etc etc

Remember also that by nature, the Mali, the GSD etc they are weary and suspicious and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (it's part of the reason why they're so successful in Police/Military/Security work) the problem only arises when the don't know how to deal with the situation and their emotions and lash out.

You'll hear a lot of people talking about having the clear head, the ability to deal with what's around them and making rational decisions on what is a real threat and what is not, and the confidence in their own ability to deal with that threat. Again when dogs seem not able to think and work out, confidently and rationally what is a threat and what is not and just react negatively to everything, a lot will say that it's due to poor nerves.

Not that the above is a picture of your dog in any way or form.

A lot will say that a nervous dog is made more nervous by the handler just through the leash. The dog feel's the handlers anxiousness on approaching ie strangers etc and in turn it causes them to feel anxious.

Avoidance obviously a big no no ! It will make things 100% worse.

I'm rambling on now so I'll leave it there.....socialise socialise socialise (Im sure you do anyway)

Good luck



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Bayleesdad
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Johns number 1 dog walker
ahh thankyou very much for the advice , Baylee has become slighltely more confident over the last few days while we've had a second dog in the house , and dont usually avoid people unless its someone who i can tell is scared of dogs because the person starts making funny movements and baylee then reacts worse but, shes not barking at as many passers by now , and in pets at home today , she only barked at one person which is alot better then the usual 4-6 people ,

:gsd paw:
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